Numbers don't lie: We're a hot marketEconomy in tri-county area diverse, growing rapidly The Post and Courier
Friday, September 28, 2007
Economy in tri-county area diverse, growing rapidly Signs of economic growth are easy to find around the Charleston region, and now the federal government has released a report that confirms that the local economy isn't just growing — it's booming. The three-county area's economic output has grown faster in the past five years than South Carolina's and the nation's as a whole, with the latest year's increase ranking among the top 20 percent of metro areas nationwide, according to a first-of-its-kind report on metro area gross domestic product. 
The Post and Courier What's driving the Charleston economy TOURISM: The visitor industry (top left) is no longer seasonal in Charleston. More than 4 million tourists flock to the region annually to gaze at historic homes, play golf, soak up the sun at local beaches or sample the city's fine-dining establishments. MANUFACTURING: Companies such as the Vought-Alenia aircraft manufacturing complex (top right) have helped raised the region's profile as a manufacturing center. Vought makes large fuselage sections for the Boeing Co.'s new 787 Dreamliner passenger jet. INFORMATION: The region's fledgling high-tech industry was given a big boost this year when Google Inc. (bottom left) confirmed plans to build a $600 million data center in Berkeley County, near Goose Creek. The company will create 200 local jobs and give the region bragging rights to a blue-chip employer and household name. FINANCE: The homegrown stock-trading firm Automated Trading Desk (bottom right) was started on a shoestring in the late 1980s by two college professors, assisted by some students. This year the Mount Pleasant-based company struck a deal to be purchased by Wall Street giant Citigroup Corp. for a staggering $680 million. The value of Charleston's total output of goods and services in 2005, the latest year for which data is available, was $20 billion, making the Lowcountry the 81st largest local economy among 363 ranked in the report by the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis. That's up five spots compared to 2001. Looking only at metro areas with economies the size of Charleston's or larger, the local area's growth rate ranked 22nd in the nation. Among South Carolina metro areas, Charleston's 16.8 percent inflation-adjusted growth over that period was behind only Myrtle Beach's 20.1 percent increase. And in the latest year, Charleston's 5.4 percent jump was tops in the state and exceeded by only 63 cities nationally. And while those numbers are impressive enough, they don't include some of the area's more recent high-profile corporate expansions, such as the Vought-Alenia aircraft manufacturing complex at Charleston International Airport, the ramping up of production and payrolls at armored vehicle maker Force Protection in Ladson, and the Google data center under construction near Goose Creek. What they do reflect is the vitality of the area's highly diversified economy, said Frank Hefner, an economist at the College of Charleston. Although Charleston is well known as a tourist destination, Hefner noted that the biggest contributors to the economic growth were manufacturing, information and finance. "If you add up the contributions of all the different industries here, we really are the proof that in economic development, you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket," he said. "We're diversified across many different categories." What that diversity does is help protect the region from a slowdown in any one business sector, Hefner said. "Having so many different kinds of growth areas, we're less susceptible to downturns," he said. "Even the housing market — we'll have a slowdown, but look at all the people moving into the area to fill all the jobs that are being created. That insulates us to some extent." What a lack of diversification can mean to an area is illustrated by the Greenville region. Its 2 percent growth from 2001-2005 placed it in a tie with two other cities, including Detroit, at 335th in the nation. Like Detroit, Greenville's economy has been tied to manufacturing, and both areas have been hit hard with plant closings and job losses. Nationally, the fastest-growing metro economy over the past five years was Palm Coast, Fla., which saw its economic output skyrocket 164 percent. Its total output in 2005 was, however, only about one-tenth the size of Charleston's. Among cities Charleston's size or larger, the fastest-growing was Las Vegas, which posted a 31.2 percent increase in output. At the opposite end of the scale, Lafayette, La., ranked lowest in growth, suffering a 10.7 percent decline in output since 2001. For cities Charleston's size or larger, Wichita, Kan., saw its output fall 3.5 percent to place the area 358th on the list. New Orleans was close behind, posting a 3.2 percent decline; the Crescent City's economy shrank as much as Charleston's grew, 5.4 percent, in 2005, the year it was hit by Hurricane Katrina. Reach Michael Buettner at 937-5553 or mbuettner@postandcourier.com. |
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Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 28, 2007 at 5:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Nice story, only one problem, all this growth has absolutely nothing to do with the city of charleston and their self declared charleston metro area.
Sorry joe, truth hurts, but your not stealing credit for this one. This one was pulled off in spite of your actions.
Posted by Mogley98 on September 28, 2007 at 6:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Tell this to the folks at Lennar, Horton, etc who are sitting on unsold homes and hundreds of developed lots that are costing a fortune in interest payments.
Posted by mggoose2000 on September 28, 2007 at 7:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Well said, John Q.
Posted by eharley on September 28, 2007 at 8:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Since the Charleston economy is more diversified and no longer so dependent on tourism, why are we still protecting the carriage industry? Isn't it time we moved out of the 18th Century?
Posted by greener1 on September 28, 2007 at 8:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This report is a joke. Unless your a Dr. or lawyer your barely making it in this town. I know there are good jobs here, but if you have one you better sit on it because another is hard to find if you lose it. I just laugh at these reports because they so fictitious because they misconstrue the real truth. Yes, it may be booming, but it low paying jobs that are coming in. Please Charleston!
Posted by ABC on September 28, 2007 at 8:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh No say it aint so. Can't you do something Mr. Beach to stop all this terrible growth? All these jobs are killing my way of life. I mean I got mine why should somebody else get theirs?
Posted by icbmman on September 28, 2007 at 9:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I like how some of you people revel in the bad news and scoff at the good news. This report provides the metro area with some much needed good news, and all some of these comments reflect is the pessimism and negativity from some very bitter people. If you don't like growth, then please, LEAVE. Lafayette and New Orleans are two communities which actually NEED people, so why don't you move there? There are some dying towns in the Pee Dee region of this state. You can live out in the sticks without fear of developers building around you. Greener, you evidently are forgetting salaries paid to workers at Blackbaud, Benefitfocus, Vought-Alenia, Nucor, American LaFrance, and financial institutions like SunTrust and Carolina First. There's far more than you realize.
Hey Exorcist, did you forget that the CITY of Charleston has the majority of the tourism industry, which was touted in this report? Like I said before dude, get a freakin' life.
Posted by Local on September 28, 2007 at 9:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Greener1, you said it best. I agree 100%. The list of companies Icmbban posted should be 20 times as long! And salaries at companies in this area are NOT competitive. Essentially if you want to live in Charleston you take a pay cut (and our cost of living here is not low). To have good jobs with advancement that pay what you are worth, you have to leave this area.
Posted by Winker on September 28, 2007 at 9:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Tourism has been leading this city as a revenue producer for years. But did you know that if you go to your favorite restaurant in downtown Charleston the server is making $2.13 cents per hour, the lowest pay rate in the entire country. There is only a small group of restaurant owners that offer health benefits and the benefits are not that good. The state and the city basically run the restaurant association, a good ole boy network at its best. If a restaurant worker was to speak out on any of this they could be fired for no reason in this "right to work" state.
So as with anything in this world growth is only good for some people.
Posted by icbmman on September 28, 2007 at 9:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The whole point of this article is that things are getting better, because as a native, I remember when you HAD to leave Chas to get a good-paying job outside of medicine and law. Things were alot worse in my hometown 15 years ago. Now, people aren't as inclined to move...though the one thing Chas needs to do is attract more corporate, white-collar jobs. A Verizon call center is nothing, but having Verizon's Southeast Corporate HQ...THAT would be good.
When Google is up and running, more high-paying jobs will start coming to Chas as more IT businesses locate nearby. 15 years from now, I think the lack of jobs will be even less than it is now.
Posted by MHA on September 28, 2007 at 9:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hmmm... I had no trouble finding a great paying job, with great working conditions, at a great company here in the Low Country. I guess it's all in how you prepare yourself for the job market that makes a difference. When I retired from the Navy and started looking for my next career, I was amazed at the opportunities in the local area. Prepare yourself correctly and the companies come looking for you. Don't prepare yourself correctly and you just fall in line with the many others that did the same.
Although I'd be hard pressed to say our local economy is "booming".. I do think it's doing very well for those with an education (at least HS graduate) and a good work ethic.
Posted by ABC on September 28, 2007 at 9:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I have an idea, lets tie the adequate public facilites ordinance to job growth. No new jobs untill the traffic problems and school over crowding are solved.
Posted by jscampb on September 28, 2007 at 9:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I find some of these posts amazing. The same people that are saying that all of these homes that were built are overpriced, are the same ones who are saying that there are no good paying jobs in the Charleston area. Who do you think bought these homes, the cashier at the 7-11. From January 1, 2006 to today, there have been over 4200 homes SOLD over $400,000 in price. Who bought those??? So please, if you are going to complain, at least be consistent.
Posted by AL4854 on September 28, 2007 at 10:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The people buying those big houses are the folks that vacation here in the summer and decide to relocate here.. at least for the most part. So it is possible to have high cost of living and low paying jobs. The housing prices here are ridiculous.
Posted by jscampb on September 28, 2007 at 10:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
ABC-perfect!!!
Posted by MHA on September 28, 2007 at 10:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The 44 year old cashier at Piggly Wiggly is probably never going to agree that our job market is in good shape and with good paying jobs. She will also never agree that housing is affordable since it costs more than her old trailer home. She also didn't agree that she needed to finish high school.
I just hope the particular woman I used as an example reads this blog :)
Posted by jscampb on September 28, 2007 at 10:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
AL4854-Right. So the job growth is not tied to the rise in new home sales. That sounds right. Oh, I get it, all of those rich carpetbagers are buying all of those overpriced homes because they don't know any better. And the people that are relocating here don't work here. They must be retired, right. That kinda goes against the overcrowded school problem. Come now.....At least connect all of the dots.
Posted by vesta on September 28, 2007 at 10:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I would question why any businesses in the future would even want to re-locate/locate to an area that has a fire department going through all of this mess, a city that has a mayor that thinks his fire fighters are not telling the truth, and a mayor, who, in my opinion, continues to create a financial liability for the city by not using foresight in his administration, and not moving the city ahead, especially in the area of fire fighting (which is critical to businesses) into the 21st century.
The only plausible reason would be that the city has excellent fire fighters (not administration) who are willing to lay down their lives for the pitiful salaries, training and equipment they receive.
If I were a business considering a move to this area, I would certainly look long and hard at NOT locating within the city limits.
Posted by rt on September 28, 2007 at 10:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
My husband & I are considering relocationg to Charleston. He has applied for a job, but neither of us has ever visited your area. I am researching the area, and came across this discussion. We are in our mid-40's and are looking to be a two career family, buy a home and raise a family. Any words of advice for us ?!? Thanks!!
Posted by MHA on September 28, 2007 at 10:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I might be wrong, but I think the vast majority of the growth has been outside of Charleston and I don't think North Charleston has gained much either. From what I've read, and even in the examples in the article above, most of the growth, business wise, has been in the rural portions of Berkeley and Dorchester counties. It's a shame that they lumped us all in as "metro Charleston". I find that label embarrassing. I agree that most businesses would not want to relocate to Charleston, but Berkeley and Dorchester counties probably look pretty appealing.
Posted by icbmman on September 28, 2007 at 11:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I would diasgree with that, MHA. Many businesses would love to have a definitive location that everybody recognizes. On paper, not many people outside SC would know where Goose Creek or Summerville are.
If there is one thing the city does wrong, it is prohibit businesses from location with their insane ordinances, oppressive city council, and notorious BAR. If the city loosened their ridiculous regulations, the city would probably start attracting more businesses in the city limits. BTW, the city is still attracting good businesses like Benefitfocus and Blackbaud; look at the banks who are establishing regional offices.
I don't know why some people here have a problem with the "Metro Charleston" label...it's almost insane how some people have an anti-city opinion.
Posted by AL4854 on September 28, 2007 at 11:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I never said rich people buy big houses b/c they do not know better. You would have to be blind not to see that there are a lot of people who come here a few times and then decide to relocate. (See post by RT, never been here and wants to come) Our city is extremely attractive to folks who are used to paying up to 10x the amt/sf. Ask some of the NYC transplants how much house they could have gotten for $400,000. I also never said that job growth was not tied to new home sales. I agree that we have had tremendous job growth. I was trying to point out that the cost of living here is pretty high and the house pricing is crazy in some areas. I wasn't saying it as a negative comment to folks who want to move here, just as a fact that there seems to have been a sharp increase in the amt of people from outside of the area moving in. Again, not negative, just an observation. My apologies for not articulating that properly. Perhaps it is better to understand exactly what someone is trying to say before you patronize them.
Posted by Yossarian on September 28, 2007 at 11:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The Charleston METRO area is continuing to boom. That's a no brainer but it's booming in the outlying communities. That is where all the jobs are being created, not Downtown or Mt Pleasant. The high priced housing market is booming in both Charleston (all parts) and Mt Pleasant and it is increasingly pushing the traditional middle class families to the periphery of the Metro area. Whereas 15 years ago someone making a median wage for the area could afford a home in Mt Pleasant, today they cannot. This is just an observation. I don't have the answer to solving any of Charleston's woes (except abolishing the 2 am curfew). Sooner rather than later downtown Charleston and Mt Pleasant are going to be almost completely devoid of lower middle class neighborhoods and maybe even your average middle class neighborhood. The problem with this is that these are the people that run your cash register at the Pig, serve you at your favorite restaurant and do all the other menial jobs. I guess that's the price you pay for coming from one of the most beautiful and unique cities in America.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 28, 2007 at 11:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The story leads one to belive that 4 million people come to the city of charleston each year as tourists. That equates to 10,958.91 new people each day of the year that weren't here the day before.
Except for around the colleges and hospitals most of the city of charleston is quiet and void of people milling around. A few streets south of broad and around market have a few hundred milling about daily.
In the morning, most of joe's tourists drive in and in the afternoon they drive home to the surronding towns and citys. They normally call these people workers not tourists.
Remember, when the hurricane is swilling, 10,958.91 people are arriving as tourists.
Really, some of you charleston (riley) sicifants got to lay off the Kool-Aid.
Posted by lisagary on September 28, 2007 at 11:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The problem isn't so much lower paying jobs, it's that the Charleston area's growth hasn't been reflected in more competitive salaries for the jobs that are already there. The south in general, but Charleston in particular, is WAY behind much of the country in salary level. I think I read an article not long ago which said that employers don't feel any need to raise salaries because there are plenty of people moving to the area who will work for those salaries. For example, in a typical northeast city, an administrative office position that might pay $45,000 a year will pay closer to $25 - 30,000 a year in Charleston. The problem with this is that the Charleston area has a significantly higher cost of living than many other southern metro areas of its size. The area is undergoing tremendous growth right now, and judging by the comments above, with growth comes the inevitable growing pains. Hopefully one positive to come out of it will be that wages eventually rise to the point that everyone, regardless of the kind of work they do, who lives and works here can actually afford to do so.
Posted by ABC on September 28, 2007 at 12:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
RT
I have lived all over the country and the world, I am not military. I moved here without a job because I vacationed here and loved it. I have four kids and live in Mount P. I can honesttly say it is the greatest place to live with or with out kids. I found a job, my wife does not work but could get a job. It is a hard place to get rich but not to live middle class assuming you and your husband have college degrees. Great time to buy a house. The traffic problems are obvious and easy to avoid. Nothing like the major cities.
Posted by SeaSaw on September 28, 2007 at 12:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
RT - I was born and reared in Charleston and moved away in 1996. I read the online paper everyday day and visit a couple of times a year. However we will not be moving back upon retirement due to the high crime rate, traffic, taxes, car insurance, etc. Compare Charleston to other coastal communities that offer free parking, bathrooms, showers & lifeguards at their area beaches. Charleston only has a few places that offer the same but for a fee. Very hard to find a free day at the beach here, if you do there will not be a restroom in sight. If Charleston were to offer these things the vandalism would be great. Also if you have a boat, boat ramps are very limited. In my opinion this is not a good place to raise children. I hope this helps, good luck with your move.
Posted by MHA on September 28, 2007 at 12:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
icbmman, I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. You stated that you disagreed with me, but then didn't address anything I said. If icbmman stands for boomer sailor, I totally understand the inability to complete a full time thought (I'm a retired fast attack sailor, so that's a friendly rivalry jab, not an insult). All I stated was that I'm fairly certain that most of the area growth has been outside Charleston. Ladson, Moncks Corner, Goose Creek and Jedburg are NOT part of Charleston metro. I didn't say anything about what companies might like as an address. I agree that some may find a Charleston address attractive, but certainly not attractive enough to put up with the city management.
I don't have an anti city thing going on. I just don't really want to be associated with the joke that is the management of Charleston. The city is great, the current management is pathetic. I live in Berkeley County. When others ask where I live, I say Summerville although I'm not actually in Summerville. I never say Charleston. The overwhelming poverty, poor infrastructure and high crime would keep me outside of Charleston as a homeowner. I realize these problems are the same problems that most cities face. The problem with Charleston is that no one in city management is addressing the issues with a real fix in mind. They think it's more important to make sure that the good old boy network is kept financially secure than it is to fix problems.
Posted by ABC on September 28, 2007 at 12:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The biggest issue of large corporations not relocating here is cost of office space, lack of large office space availablity, and the high cost of flying out of here. Magnolia and Noisette could solve those problems if the price is right and the airport cost is getting better. Lets not forget why houses cost so much here. Ocean on one side, National park on another, ACE Basin on the other. Leaves only I-26 corridor for expansion.
Cities like Columbia, Raleigh and Charlotte have cheaper housing because the can develope 360 degrees and they are not on the Ocean. Between Virginia and Jacksonville, Charleston is the most dynamic area. And is cheaper. All in all Charleston has cheap housing when compared to living at the Beach.
Posted by ABC on September 28, 2007 at 12:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Charleston Metro= Charleston MSA which is the 3 counties.
SeaSaw- IOP has free bathrooms and Showers. You can buy an anual county parking pass for $75 or pay $5-$10 everytime you go. If you can't afford $5-$10 to go to Beach we probably don't want you to retire here. I can imagine how much you would support the arts and the restaraunts.
Posted by SeaSaw on September 28, 2007 at 1:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
ABC - Last time I checked you have to feed meters to park at IOP. I don't consider that free. You don't know what I can or can't afford. You must not be a true southern cause you are very rude. Also you are YOU not we!
Posted by chardock on September 28, 2007 at 1:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I love reading how your pups down in Charleston argue over scrraps. Jobs! Yeah you've got a few turbo-props being built down there. Here in Charlotte we've not only got jobs, we've got REAL median income in every direction. I just love cruising down ya'lls empty highways, staying at a nice hotel, and eating some good food. Oh, and I'll tip some of your new "jobs" a couple of bucks for waiting my table.
Posted by GenXMom on September 28, 2007 at 2:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Looks like Seattle all over again. The bi-line is 'tri-county, diverse, growth' not 'Charleston/Mt Pleasant where to live and work'. What makes this a "Seattle"? Ocean one side, mountains on the other and lakes all over so there are only so many places to expand current roads with a massive Port and military posts to accommodate. The Port is expanding, high tech moved into old iron company spaces outpacing Boeing with a bit of everything else in between. Housing was affordable but you can't find anything close in comparatives for under three times as much here - and the pay isn't great on entry level/retail jobs as many have pointed out. Tri-county (King, Pierce, Snohomish) development outstripped school and services capacity not to mention horrific traffic to accommodate people coming in from all over the country for new companies - now we are at a standstill so none of it made this area "bulletproof" in terms of economic growth and cost of living. That is where this article went wrong.
Same problems with beach and boating access, same out laying area's of development with no forethought as to impact, same political good ol' boys who ran Seattle proper not giving in to keep the city itself sustained.
It took 20 years for all things to be addressed, I hope that doesn't happen there because now its too little too late here.
Posted by lostinterestfast on September 28, 2007 at 2:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"From January 1, 2006 to today, there have been over 4200 homes SOLD over $400,000 in price."
...and how many in that price range have gone on the market in that time frame??? Better yet, how many of those homes are still worth close to what was paid for them??
Posted by icbmman on September 28, 2007 at 2:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Actually MHA, I'm an Air Force guy, I was a missile (ICBM) launch officer at FE Warren AFB, WY...so the friendly jab is cool, but I have to say as a Navy swabbie (sp?), you've got a few things incorrect. Maybe you were out at sea too long? (my friendly jab back at ya!) Granted, most of the housing growth has been around the lower parts of Berkeley and Dorchester County. However, the city limits of Chas go into Berkeley quite a bit with Daniel Island and Cainhoy, both areas that are experiencing a great deal of growth. The city is projected to have almost 120,000 people by 2010...that's from 96,000 actually counted in the last census. I'd say the city is growing quite nicely. Take a look at areas West Ashley and James Island where new homes are being built.
Ladson, Moncks Corner, Summerville, Goose Creek, and Jedburg ARE part of Charleston metro, like it or not. The metro consists of all 3 counties, and the reason is that many of the residents from those communities commute to Chas for work. The urban area of Chas extends from the peninsula all the way into the cities you listed. Regardless if you like the label, that's where you live. And no offense, but if it wasn't for Chas, these suburban cities would NOT be experiencing the growth that they are now. Chas is the primary city of the region, and for you to ignore that does not make much sense.
I'm not a big fan of management in the city either. I wish my hometown had better policies allowing businesses to build taller buildings downtown, less ordinances (like the stupid sign ordinance for businesses West Ashley), better street lighting, and less crime. However, it's ridiculous to "absolve" yourself from a metro area just because the mayor and city council are morons, IMO. Nobody outside of the state knows where Summerville is, just like nobody would know where West Ashley is (where I grew up). It makes sense to say the primary city's metro area...at least that's what most people in cities around the NATION do, anyway.
Posted by icbmman on September 28, 2007 at 2:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Interestingly enough, the link below in today's paper highlights the so-called "jobless" or "low-paying jobs" in Chas that some of you profess the metro area to have...oh, that's right, the city actually ranks 12th in the nation in job growth. Whoops!
http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/sep/...
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 28, 2007 at 3:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
More city of charleston residents flee charleston city to work in the City of North Charleston, Summerville and Goose Creek.
There is no charleston metro area, if the city of charleston residents want to drink the Kool-Aid and pretend, well, it makes it easier for mayor riley and the movers and shakers in the city of charleston, to control you.
Posted by ABC on September 28, 2007 at 3:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
SeaSaw- Did not say parking is free but cost $5-10. As for Taxes, SC is on the good side of the top half in total Tax burden by state. If you do read the paper evryday you will see that car insurance is actually coming down. And I don't find it expesnive. As far as not being from the South you are wrong, born and raised. By the way quit being so pretentious in your assumptions that only Southerners are nice. Crime here is not really a problem unless you live in the bad sections of town and/or deal drugs. I work downtown and have had no issues.
Glad you get all your Charleston knowledge with 11 year old experiences, a few visits a year and reading the paper online. Sounds like you are a wealth of knowledge on what is going on in Charleston and very dialed in. You appear to be bitter. Another reason you should not come back.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 28, 2007 at 3:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
See the cargo planes flying over the city of charleston, they are not bringing things in or out of the city of charleston.
There is a massive international aircraft industry located in the City of North Charleston located at the airport operated by Charleston County. Parts are coming from all over the world supporting airliner construction.
Posted by rt on September 28, 2007 at 3:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thanks for all your comments. I appreciate it!
Posted by icbmman on September 28, 2007 at 4:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Exorcist, you are officially an idiot and a "Mary Clark" nutjob. What are they bringing in at the port downtown? Or is the port really a complete fabrication provided by "evil" Riley and his cohorts? What about people like my dad who only lives 2 miles from his work West Ashley (city of Charleston)? There is no Chas metro area, huh? Do you even read something besides this paper and your James Island propaganda papers? Take a look at Census figures and state figures, bonehead.
Talk about drinking the Kool Aid. You must be drinking it severely in the pseudo-town of James Island with fellow redneck, Ms. Clark.
Posted by MHA on September 28, 2007 at 4:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Actually I'm a retired submarine sailor; we're called "bubbleheads" :)
According to Webster's, Charleston would actually be part of Metro North Charleston. Even that is a stretch of the definition. We don't really have a "metro" here in the low country. Columbia comes close, but even they are small. You'd have to go to Atlanta or Charlotte to be in a real metro... BTW, not having one here is a GOOD thing. We're having enough problems with our "small" city. Ladson, Goose Creek and such would not be part of a Charleston or North Charleston "metro".
Posted by ABC on September 28, 2007 at 4:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
A metropolitan area is a large population centre consisting of a large metropolis and its adjacent zone of influence, or of more than one closely adjoining neighboring central cities and their zone of influence. One or more large cities may serve as its hub or hubs, and the metropolitan area is normally named after either the largest or most important central city within it.
What is this Metro Argument about? This should clear it up Charleston is a Metropolitan area. Metro and MSA are almost always used interchangeably. The very fact that it is called NORTH Charleston means Charleston is the "most important central city within it."
Posted by MHA on September 28, 2007 at 4:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
First of all, Charleston is not even CLOSE to being a large city. North Charleston is larger and has more activity (although not all of it good activity), so by your definition, Charleston would be part of the North Charleston Metro area.
Second of all, it's called North Charleston because... well, it's NORTH of Charleston. I'm guessing you think North Carolina is more important than South Carolina just because of its name??? I'm still laughing. That's one of the silliest arguments I've ever read on any blog <lol>.
Actually, I just read your other post on this topic ABC and I see that trying to explain this to you is not worth while. Its Bud Light time anyway. Have fun in your metro... I'll be relaxing in rural Berkeley County :)
Posted by Neponset on September 28, 2007 at 5:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I wonder which city generates the most dollars and jobs - my guess is N. Charleston. If I was to start a business, it would probably be there.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 28, 2007 at 6:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Two glasses of grape Kool-aid for ABC please.
The number 1 money maker in South Carolina, for more than 15-20 years has been the City of North Charleston, generating "BILLIONS" more in revenue than its nearest competitor, at number 2, the City of Columbia.
The city of charleston was a distant 7 or 8.
There is no charleston metro area, except in the troubled minds of some charlestonians.
Posted by jifdeng3 on September 28, 2007 at 7:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Too bad the terrible pay for blue collar workers here cant come up too..
Posted by SeaSaw on September 28, 2007 at 7:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)
ABC - If I have to pay to park at the beach, then the free bathrooms and showers are no longer free. When people look for places to retire they look at crime rates, taxes, car insurance, beach, boating access, and more. Retirees do not clog roadways commuting to work or overcrowd schools. They do community service and pay just as much taxes as a growing family does. So please think twice before making insulting remarks about how much they would support the arts and the restaurants. The exterior beauty of Charleston is awesome -no denying that. Her interior isn't as pretty. Those that post here and sugar-coat the crime are disconnected because they choose to be. There are some here who want to push Charleston as this ideal, perfect place. It's far from it. Crime in Charleston is real and it's ugly and it's not getting better. Charleston is truly one of the most unique and beautiful places in the US but like many big cities it is being eroded by crime and traffic problems. If being truthful makes me bitter then so be it. One thing about retiring you can live where ever you want to. You're not stuck somewhere just because that's where your bread is buttered.
Posted by Neponset on September 28, 2007 at 8:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
ex
Thanks for the info. I prefer the name "tri-county area".
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 28, 2007 at 9:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes, I agree with you, Neponset. Tri-County area has a more powerful sound about it. Gives it that unified, working together sort of feeling.
Good idea.
Posted by MHA on September 28, 2007 at 9:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well said ex.
Posted by southbel on September 28, 2007 at 9:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It always amazes me that when people talk about big employers here in the Charleston area, they forget a really big one. The military. SPAWAR, for example, supports a LOT of very well paying jobs here in this areas, if you count all of the supporting contracting companies that work with it. So, for those that asked who is paying good salaries and who is able to afford these nice houses? Um, a lot of those people. Also, the 200 IT jobs that Google is bringing in is a drop in the bucket in comparison to the IT jobs that already exist because of our already existing military.
Posted by gamecockcougar on September 28, 2007 at 10:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tell realitors this; they are starving; especially in mt plastic
Posted by RTC on September 28, 2007 at 10:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
southbel, what about all of the jobs on the waterfront? I thought that would be mentioned in the article.
The port is the main reason that Charlestown came to be.
A town was built around a port, and not the other way around. The economy of the whole state is affected by the port.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 28, 2007 at 10:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well exactly, southbel, all Google is bringing to Goose Creek is a switching center. The couple hundred people there will mainly support/maintain that center.
Can not understand how that will naturally cause more high tech jobs in the city of charleston or else ware.
SPAWAR in Goose Creek has created a lot of ancillary jobs around the City of Goose Creek, City of Hanahan and the City of North Charleston.
Posted by adkmtbiker on September 28, 2007 at 10:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
greener1 hit the nail on the head!
Posted by southbel on September 28, 2007 at 10:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
RTC, I agree. Whenever you hear about economy and Charleston, you hear tourism, tourism, and more tourism. I think that the military and the ports are enormous influences on the economy here and they are largely ignored in the media and by our local government. Yet, a lot of people work or support both of those industries here.
By the way, gamecockcougar, Mt. Pleasant is suffering from the exact same problem that every other place in the tri-county area is suffering from, over speculation of the market and flooding of the market. In other words, too many homes built for a population that didn't exist to purchase it. They speculated that it would exist and they gambled incorrectly. Oh well, they shouldn't have done so. I know that I bought a home here three years ago and I still have a LOT of equity in my home from when I bought my home, well above the national average, so I don't consider that a bad thing. Of course, the value has decreased recently but I think that's just a sign that the market is actually getting a little more normal now here versus how insane it was a couple years ago.
Posted by mdtpace on September 28, 2007 at 10:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I can't imagine that North Charleston, Charleston, all of the metro area combined would add up to half of what the Greenville/Spartanburg area generates. Better schools, better jobs, better pay, better cost of living. The Sumney/Riley/Hallman,etc clown contest needs to come to an end.
Posted by southbel on September 28, 2007 at 10:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
mdtpace, I moved from the Greenville/Spartanburg area to here. Cost of living is definitely less but the jobs pay a lot less up there. Personally, I find the schools my daughter goes to here a lot better, but I live in Mt. P, so it's all relative. Cost of living though, MUCH more expensive down here. BUT, Greenville/Spartanburg didn't have a beach, the history, the same culture and really just didn't have as much to do. Of course, that's just my opinion, I am sure there will be plenty who disagree with me.
Posted by RTC on September 28, 2007 at 11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
southbel, I am a life long resident of Mt.P, but my husband and I have thought of eventually retiring to the same area from which you moved. Would you consider that a good idea?
Posted by southbel on September 28, 2007 at 11:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
RTC, you will get a lot for your money there, and the land is plentiful. What you won't get there that do get in Mt. P are local businesses. I love to patronize local businesses and it's almost all chains there. However, you can get a nice home, on a very large lot for a great price.
The area north of Greenville/Spartanburg is quite pretty because that is where the foothills start and even the real estate is a bit cheaper there. You will see more horse farms there, larger estates, mixed with communities. In addition, you have a few lakes up that way.
If you like golf, there are quite a few golf communities as well. I would say, all in all, it's a very good value for your money, with pretty good infrastructure (traffic is not bad at all). Like I said before, however, I do think it does lack things to do like we have here in Charleston. Downtown Greenville is a really nice area though - very pretty with some nice restaurants. If you like the mountains, they are just a hop, skip, and jump away. Lots of lakes nearby too -- Hartwell, Joccasse, Bowen.
Posted by southbel on September 28, 2007 at 11:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh one more thing RTC. On values. In Mt P, let's say average house costs 400K and you get 2500 square feet on 1/3 acre here. In that area, you get about 3500-4000 square feet on an acre. That's the difference. Of course, that will change depending on if you go for getting a lakefront house, house on a golf course, etc. But, it will still be around those numbers give or take even given those location changes. Lot of brick homes up that way as well.
Posted by RTC on September 28, 2007 at 11:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thanks for all of the info, southbel.
I used to have relatives in Greenville, and all I can remember is visiting Paris Mtn.
We would like to have some property, and my husband has been looking on homesandland.com. He told me that he was amazed at how inexpensive land was there in comparison to our area.
We also need to be close to good medical facilities.
My husband had a heart attack at 39, and since then he has had stents and a triple by-pass.
That is one thing that I would miss down here. Roper has a fantastic heart center.
It's not a definite thing, and we do have time to decide, but it doesn't hurt to look ahead.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 29, 2007 at 9:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Can you give us, 10 examples, of the great things mayor joseph p. riley, jr. has done, to make the city of charleston a better place for "ALL" its citizens, not just the few rich and famous, the movers and shakers.
Be specific, no warm and fussys if you please.
For someone as great as the city of charleston, mayor joseph p. riley, jr. this shouldn't be too hard.
Posted by Julianna on September 29, 2007 at 10:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I cried when I left the tri-county area in 1995. The CNSY closed and we moved to NC to another base. When my siblings tell me about the high crime, rapid development and traffic, I find that I am glad we moved to Eastern NC. My DH can finish out his CSRS retirement in 5 yrs and we can finally build our dream house here in NC vs. going back to Summerville for retirement. We have visited about twice a yr since '95, and find that N.Chas., especially from Ashley Phos./Stall Road/ has become a little Tiajuana. N.Chas crime is still very bad, and downtown is worse still. I think we will retire right here in NC. What has happened to the quiet tri-county area?
Posted by chardock on September 29, 2007 at 10:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Children, children. There ain't enough waffle houses in all of North Charleston, Charleston, Scummerville, Ravenel, whatever swamp, to give you all jobs. Oh well, time to go crank up my SUV and drive 1 hour to the mountains--using the 5 weeks paid vacation real employers give in Charlotte. Toodles.
Posted by MHA on September 29, 2007 at 11:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
You're vaction is limited chardock? Hmmm... you must not have worked your way very far up the company ladder yet. My employer here in Charleston doesn't put a limit on my time off. My corporate office is in Charlotte, so I know they have the same policy there too. Don't worry though. Keeping working hard and you'll get there one day.
Charlotte is an OK city, if you like cities. I'm there about once a mont. Wat too much traffic for me. More slums than the low country too. And I may be wrong, but by looking at the traffic, I assume it's a law that you must drive an 18 wheeler or stay home? You have a Bass Pro Shops though, so you win :).
Posted by SeaSaw on September 29, 2007 at 1:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Julianna - I'm in Newport, NC. I too cried when I left my home in Charleston due to the base closure. Like you we will be staying here when we retire. This beautiful place is like Charleston was 30 years ago.
Posted by icbmman on September 29, 2007 at 11:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
MHA, sorry, you're wrong. Charleston is the largest city in the area with 115,000 people. N. Charleston is about 94,000 people, and it really is ridiculous to even have a separate city...the north area is direct extension of the Chas peninsula. The reason it exists is due to the pompous idiots of Chas city council in the past that didn't want to annex areas of N. Chas. They're regretting that decision for a long time.
For a bubblehead, I would think you've been around more places to understand what a metro area is. It appears you don't even have a good knowledge of cities due to your disdain for them.
Exorcist, your idiocy is more blatant than ever. Those rankings you mentioned were retail numbers, and again, with N. Chas basically being a northern extension of Chas, it doesn't even matter. Why do you think tourism is still a large industry in Chas? Do you think people want to go to Rivers Avenue and tour the rundown neighborhoods and crack houses? Please, get a clue!!!
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 30, 2007 at 12:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Having delusions of grandeur are we. Yes, I guess if you live in the city of charleston, under joe riley, you haven't much else left.
I'm glad to see you finally came up for air. Maybe you should wipe that brown off your nose, not very becoming you know.
Posted by MHA on September 30, 2007 at 7:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Ya know, I didn't realize the arrogance of some of the Charlestonians until this article came out. It's been quite enlightening. It's kind of funny too.
icbmmab: "My kick ball is square"
Normal Person: "No, icbmman, your kick ball is round, just like all other kick balls"
icbmman: "No, mine is square"
Normal Person: "No, it's round. See how it rolls?"
icbmman (stamping feet): "NO! NO! NO! Mine is SQUARE!"
Normal Person: "See how that kick ball over there is round? See how your's looks just like it? Your kick ball is round"
icbmman (still stamping feet, yelling, eyes tearing up): "You shut up you idiot! MINE is SQUARE and I"m leaving and I'm taking my ball with me!!!"
Posted by Neponset on September 30, 2007 at 8:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)
MHA
I was wondering when someone would take on the icbm man. He said he was an officer - wonder what his men thought of him.
Posted by MHA on September 30, 2007 at 9:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Most military officers are great men and leaders. I say men, because in the submarine force, we didn't have any women. Some officers though, were so stuck on the fact that they were an "officer" that they refused to see when they were wrong. When proven wrong, they simplied tried to change the focus of the conversation by attempting to belittle others. Case in point above. I was enlisted. I was wrong sometimes. Fortunately I had some great people working with me, officers and enlisted, that kept me from screwing up when I was wrong.
Posted by icbmman on September 30, 2007 at 10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I like how you people like to twist facts into your own twisted world. You can't debate facts, so you resort to insults and putdowns, placing my arguments into condescending backslaps. Real grown up.
I can't stand idiocy and people who choose to live in their own world rather than reality. Truth is rather offensive to unintelligent people.
Posted by Cid95 on September 30, 2007 at 10:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Everywhere in the world, the area around a recognizable city is the "metro area". Charleston is no different.
Tell the next person you meet from California or New Zealand or Japan that you are from Summerville, South Carolina and watch their eyes glaze over. However, in the 20+ countries that I've visited, Charleston actually gets decent name recognition. Not great, but decent.
Someone hit the nail on the head above.
High quality of life = Desire of people to live here = Willingness to accept lower pay / ease of finding employees = continued repressed salaries
It isn't going to change anytime soon.
Posted by Neponset on October 1, 2007 at 8:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
icbm man
Your the one who uses the "I" word (idiot) freely.
Posted by icbmman on October 1, 2007 at 9:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Neponset, if the shoe fits...
Cid95 made my point perfectly. These other individuals that choose to live in their warped reality need to understand that the sky really is BLUE, even if it might appear purple out in la la land. And you're right, I do use the word "idiot" quite frequently when I see these opinions that come from people in my hometown. It is quite depressing, because opinions like these will keep Chas as a mediocre city, and nothing more.
Posted by Neponset on October 1, 2007 at 9:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
icbm man
I suggest that you reread the statement, by the P&C, above the comments section - it speaks to civil discourse etc - I know you have a lot to say and some of it might have merit, but be civil and don't abuse your follow bloggers - if you actually were an officer in the USAF and were properly trained, use those leadership skills to draw out positive discusion and don't put down follow bloggers, as you have in the past.
Posted by icbmman on October 1, 2007 at 10:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)
OK, fine Neponset, you're right. I apologize for calling the individuals names...but I do think the opinions can be greatly absurd. It's just very frustrating to deal with people like Exorcist, who BTW, is also very insulting and derogatory to me and others here.
Posted by Neponset on October 1, 2007 at 10:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Cid95
I think if you took a poll of the thoughtful segment of the tricounty area, most would prefer to fly under the radar screen. We are tired of being "the most friendly" "fastest growing" etc - we just want to be left alone!
Posted by icbmman on October 1, 2007 at 11:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
But Neponset, flying under the radar screen doesn't equate to financial prosperity in this economy. Charleston has been left alone through the late 1800s and the majority of the 20th century, and we all know that the area was much poorer during those times. I would disagree with the poll, because many younger residents who are natives used to have a much harder time staying near their families in earlier years because of the metro area's inadequate growth. Now, thankfully, that's becoming a thing of the past.
Posted by Neponset on October 1, 2007 at 2:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
icbm man
But we have not lately - we want a confortable level of progress - not large corporations, who need to show a 15% growth rate, dictating what is an acceptable level for their growth. Let us grow slowly so that the tax base can handle this growth and infrastructural requirements. If we squander the riches of this area, we well be soon side stepped for the next mecca.
Posted by Neponset on October 1, 2007 at 5:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Corection
last phrase should read: "we will be soon be side stepped for the next mecca, if there is one.
Posted by Neponset on October 1, 2007 at 6 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Correction 2
Delete first "be"
Posted by icbmman on October 1, 2007 at 9:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Growing slowly is ideal, but most boomtowns in the Midwest, West, and even here in the South rarely do that. Some of the problems that Chas has as a community comes from people thinking that upgrades to infrastructure such as widening and adding roads will make things worse. However, this mentality is self-defeating...it means that to hinder fast growth, we have to allow life to be progressively and exponentially miserable for the residents currently living in Chas.
I think better growth can be done through denser developments in the urban core such as lower N. Chas, West Ashley, and the Neck. We've just got to make that a priority and try to make those areas cheaper and more attractive for developers, since they still have an affinity for land further in the 'burbs.
Posted by icbmman on October 1, 2007 at 9:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
...And, the buffoons in Chas need to start allowing taller buildings to be constructed, especially around the Neck and parts of downtown north of Calhoun. IMO, this stupid height ordinance is part of the overwhelming growth problem in Summerville and Goose Creek.