Council split on role in fire dept.
Some members want more say on reforms; others call for patience
The Post and Courier
Tuesday, August 28, 2007
Charleston City Council members want a voice in charting a course for the fire department, but they are at odds with each other and the mayor over the extent of their involvement and how soon to inject themselves into the process. Some council members prefer to wait until various investigations finish assessing the fire department and its handling of the June 18 Sofa Super Store fire that killed nine city firefighters. Others say the blaze raised safety and leadership issues that demand more immediate action. Mayor Joe Riley has provided updates to the council on the status of the investigations and the city's response to the blaze. But he also has shut the council out of key decisions, such as the hiring of expert consultants to evaluate the fire department, some council members said. That doesn't sit well with Councilman James Lewis, who said the mayor's office has been too slow in sharing information about the fire. Council often learns about important developments, such as the consultants' recommendations, just before they are announced to the general public, leaving little time for input, he said. "He feels because he is the mayor he has the opportunity to run the city the way he wants it. I think that's the wrong way to go about it," Lewis said. "We have a responsibility to the city, too. If we just sit there and let things happen and don't say nothing, then we aren't doing our jobs." Councilmen Jimmy Gallant and Henry Fishburne are pushing for council-led committees to have greater involvement in reviewing the fire and whatever changes are needed to bring the fire department in line with national standards. Gallant, chairman of council's Public Safety Committee, plans to raise the issue at his panel's Sept. 10 meeting. "I don't want to interfere with the investigation," Gallant said. "We just don't want to wait for something else to happen before we have good information." Last week, Riley reminded council members that Charleston's strong-mayor form of government empowers him to set the course for city departments. On Monday, he took a more conciliatory tone, saying he values council members' opinions and looks forward to their input on improving the fire department. Riley said the ongoing criminal investigation into the sofa store fire has limited the information he can share with council. "When that is completed, things will be easier," he said. In the meantime, Riley asked council to be patient. Not all council members are eager to jump into the debate. Some, such as Councilwoman Kathleen Wilson, said the city needs to avoid knee-jerk reactions and let official investigations run their course. "We need to resist the temptation to get in and fix things right away," she said. "Let's allow people to do their jobs before we rush in to judge." Councilman Wendell Gilliard said he has a list of concerns about the fire department, including the need for more training and the lack of air conditioning on firetrucks. But he too thinks council should wait until the investigations are complete before it weighs in on change, he said. "We owe it to the city to find answers and move forward," he said. "But we need to be patient. We need to show positive leadership. I don't think we need to be pointing fingers at this juncture." Gilliard and others said they are satisfied that Riley is keeping them abreast of new developments. Councilwoman Anne Frances Bleecker, whose district includes the furniture store destroyed in the fire, said Riley and Fire Chief Rusty Thomas have been responsive to every question she has asked. "We have been included as much as we can be at this stage." Fishburne, however, said council needs to educate and prepare itself for the changes likely coming as a result of the investigations, changes that could affect a range of issues including fire tactics and building codes. "We need to get going." Fishburne said it is important to have a public body involved in the discussion to show that the process is open, fair and transparent. "It's the community's fire department," he said. "They need to feel like they are part of the process." Gallant, a police chaplain, spent the night of the sofa store blaze consoling the families of the nine fallen firefighters. "If there was something I could have done to prevent that, I would have done it," he said. "I don't ever want to tell nine families again that their loved ones are lost. That is going to stay with me for the rest of my life."
Reach Glenn Smith at 937-5556 or gsmith@postandcourier.com. Reach Ron Menchaca at rmenchaca@postandcourier.com or 937-5724.
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Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 28, 2007 at 12:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Thank goodness they are beginning to listen, even if it is too few of them...Unfortunately, how many of the ones listening are leaving office this term???? The folks running feel what? Where is their voice in this so the voters know who to vote for?
Finally a council member willing to state the Mayor runs this city alone...a seemingly rogue politician...
Those balking at making decisions in the interim are the rubber stamps anyway...we can "assume" they don't think for themselves already! Are you people for real??????
My A$$ Mayor! We are sick of your excuses-one after the other, instead of hiding behind excuses of litigation- give Council what they need to fix YOUR mess! You have ignored the warning signs since 1996! Enough already.
Posted by fyrmnjim on August 28, 2007 at 1:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Keep up the heat Ron and Glenn. If major changes don't occur SOON, more people WILL die, FF's or civilians.
CFD still is a ticking time bomb waiting for the next "Big One". Major changes are needed from top to bottom, starting with replacing your chief with someone who has knowledge and experience being a real chief, can work autonomously, and is not afraid to stand up to the mayor and fight for his men to get them EVERYTHING they need to really be the best.
The council needs to get their heads out of the sand and realize that these changes are needed, yesterday!!
Posted by trm2105 on August 28, 2007 at 8:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Don't know if any of you guys are aware of this, but last week in New York there was a fire in the Deutsche Bank Building near Ground Zero. Guess what, three senior fire officers were relieved (fired) from their posts after two, just two, firefighters died. Check out the article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/28/nyregi...
This really makes the leadership in Charleston look irresponsible, arrogant, insensible, stubborn, egotistical, delusional, inept, disrespectful, cowardly, and just plain dumb. Charleston lost 9 and no one after all this time has even been suspended in the least. This is such an embarrassing fiasco that ALSO could have been avoided after what was an obviously avoidable tragedy.
Posted by lyfe1999 on August 28, 2007 at 8:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Organize, Organize, Organize, and send the Mayor and his cronies packing like Anne Francis Bleeker is up for re-election. And let's go after Kathleen Wilson in 2009 when her term comes around. Organize, Organize, Organize.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 28, 2007 at 8:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)
trm,
I absolutely did know that...From the recent reports, MOST departments do act much quicker, which is why many of us are SO frustrated...There is no reason for the heel dragging, other than to maintain control.
Posted by deputy216 on August 28, 2007 at 8:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Changes were given to the fire department and let them handle it.To many people get involved and become creative.As a former paratrooper we had a saying we used (kiss)keep it simple stupid.
Posted by pball4f on August 28, 2007 at 9:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I believe while this is good now we are introducing politics into the fire department. What is going to happen down the road when council forgets about this tragedy and needs to cut the budget. The fire department will have to fight tooth and nail the council instead of the mayor and that is a much more daunting task. Does the council really believe that they can do a much better job. The problem is that the council never really understands what the fire department needs. It is true in most municipalities. How many of our council members have ever ridden in a fire apparatus, how many have been in an involved structure. Do they know the difference in a PBI and Nomex protective layer? The answer is probably not, the council sees only one thing the money. And when the fire department needs more of it ten years down the line will they be willing to step up. I feel that this is a poorly veiled publicity stunt for many members on council. If they really believed that this was the right thing to do they would have stepped up years ago. Do what is right and make sure the CFD gets what they need and leave as many layers of red tape out of the equation as possible.
Posted by masmith53 on August 28, 2007 at 9:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
In response the firing of the three senior fire officers in New York, I applaud them for their quick action. I'm a Southerner, but I'm afraid that our slow, seemingly laid back attitude towards things is in overkill mode here in the handling of the SSS fire. How many times do we Southerners say "oh, that's alright" when someone does something that we don't like. Then we sit and stew because they've made us mad and we didn't say what was really on our minds. These councilmen are not saying "oh, that's alright". They're taking action. Action is what is needed now not a wait and see attitude.
Posted by bigbrotheriswatching on August 28, 2007 at 9:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I concur masmith53
The mayor of new york showed exactly what needed to be done....procative leadership...how can the CFD make any REAL changes with the same people at the head of the organization...not only that, involved with the review and the investigation process....a kangaroo court if I ever saw one....this is laughable if not just ridiculous...the mayor has exhibited and continues to ehibit the negative effects of too many years in power...the council is in no position to challenge him and I wonder if because of all of his years in office if anyone on the council has the political strength and muster to challenge him on something as important as this...it's one thing to wage war with him in the media...but will they challenge their constituants to rise up against him at the polls???
Let's watch and see....
Posted by Burntower on August 28, 2007 at 10:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
They may try and act slow but they know whats coming. They are affraid to take any action because now it will seem as if to say WE WERE WRONG, and how can that be? They know who is responsible and the reasons behind it, to many people trying to save face and now we are a joke. Of course the mayor wants to wait till this investigation is over, that wont be for another year before that happens and by then he has secured his throne.
Hey what do I know, Im just a FF who is venting.
Posted by Dutchman on August 28, 2007 at 10:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This situation has sure taken its toll on all of us in the fire service. I'm sure that all parties involved are totally drained by the event and its subsequent fallout. With the public release of the recommendations of the reviewing panel, I think we all agree action is needed. I really hope that all parties involved realize that all possible known deficiencies which can be addressed must be addressed now.
Any prudent manager would seize on the recommendations and institute them as quickly as possible. Some items might have short delays due to the need to educate the personnel on the coming changes but others should be put in place immediately.
Internal and external politics aside, the welfare of the citizens, the CFD employees, the fire department and the City of Charleston in general rests in the hands of the fire department managers. The politicans, by now, should have made their demands for change known and should expect the changes to be made. If the changes are not implimented immediately, then the politicans should find managers who will do the job required by them.
I'm not an expert in the operations of the Charleston Fire Department but, I do know good management principals when I see them. No more "investigations" of the SSS need to take place before the initial recommended changes by fire service professionals are implimented.
Posted by Hamy91 on August 28, 2007 at 10:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Why is it when a police officer's conduct is brought into questioned they are immediately suspended with pay pending the results of whatever investigation is in progress? Why has this not been down with the fire department senior staff members? The point of the suspension is not to put a black eye on the individual but rather to protect the integrity of the investigation and to ensure public safety. Chief Thomas and the senior fire department officers who may have been in charge at the scene of the sofa store fire should be suspended until the investigation has concluded. This is the position that the city council should be taking at this time. If policies were broken and that act was a direct cause in the deaths of 9 firefighter then the personnel responsible should not be in power to make similar decisions while the investigations are on going.
Posted by Mayor on August 28, 2007 at 11:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)
City council hasn't a clue about the CFD. Outside agency needed to direct which way to go. It's acceptable and professional to ask for help. Our mayor and council are clueless about what to do, they should be, they don't know anything about a fire department. Get Help!
Posted by Mayor on August 28, 2007 at 11:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hamy91, just shut up!
Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 28, 2007 at 12:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I see nothing wrong with Hamy91's post...Why is there a double standard? Why should one group of public servants be held to higher standards? There has to be accountability..both in all agencies and within Council and the Mayor as well...No one is above the law.
If the Mayor was so interested in righting the wrongs inside the department, he wouldn't have waited several weeks before calling for an internal investigation by the panel. I am glad to see some council members coming forward, but I do have to ask, "Why not sooner?"
In my opinion, Hamy91 is right...there should be a few people on Administrative leave...Why is that so wrong to expect?
Posted by jifdeng3 on August 28, 2007 at 12:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
FYI.... FDNY did not fire those officers... one district chief, one batallion chief, and one captain. They were releived of field duty and placed in "office" positions until the investigation has concluded.
Posted by jifdeng3 on August 28, 2007 at 12:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Second point. This is the problem with the strong mayor system. There are no checks and balances. A single person is free to make decisions at his whim without any oversight. This leads to favoritism, being easily controlled by special interest groups, and the perpetuation of the buddy buddy system that the south runs on. The system of government in Charleston needs to change. Its time for the council-manager system. This has been proven time and time again to be the most effective form of government for many reasons. Some of these reasons are stronger voice for the people due to individual council members representing different parts of the city, the power of special interests are diffused, and merit based decision making instead of partisan politics. If this City want to continue to advance it needs to leave the past behind!
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 28, 2007 at 1:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Is this the headlines of the near future?
>>> "Welcome to the greater City of North Charleston, the tri-county leader in business and industry." <<< While you are here be sure to visit our quaint little neighbor to the south, charleston.
To the city of charleston city council, you need to stand up and be counted. What do you think the citizens of charleston are paying you for? Its time for the citizens of the city of charleston to have more of a say in 'Their' city. The citizens are depending on 'YOU'. Stop being a doormat. Its time for a change in the form of Government. Call for an election ballot on the matter.
The one man dictatorship is out of control. Time to stop "The King is dead, Long Live the King"
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 28, 2007 at 1:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
From todays Business section of the P&C.
Trade center developer to build complex.
A Florida real estate company positioning itself to become a major player in the development of trade center complexes is relocating to South Carolina from the Sunshine State.
Trade Center Development Corp. of Fort Lauderdale said Monday it will move its operations to a new headquarters in North Charleston.
The company plans to build a 14-story, 280,000-square-foot complex along International Boulevard between Interstate 526 and the North Charleston Coliseum. Officials hope to break ground before the end of the year and open within 18 months. But it's not a done deal yet............"We're still at the talking stage," Cawley said. "As of this date, nothing has been approved with the mayor and city council.".............Nevertheless, Cawley said the proposal "appears to be a great idea," and city officials like the notion of a trade center complex in North Charleston......Part of the complex would serve the headquarters for the S.C. World Trade Center, a locally based organization that promotes global trade. It also would provide offices and conference areas for local, regional and international economic development groups, chambers of commerce and international businesses.
Wakeup city of charleston, your dictator is asleep at the wheel.
Posted by mggoose2000 on August 28, 2007 at 2:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Do you people really believe that the Chief and his subordinates really sent 9 men to their deaths? If mistakes were made, let's wait and see what they were before we start calling for suspensions and articles of guilt. I agree that the Mayor needs to relinquish some of his power to responsible members of city council, but if I were in his place and hearing all of you asking for heads to roll, I'd be reluctant to give over this authority, too. And while we're talking about City Council, why haven't you guys jumped on them for not requiring that all buildings of that size to have sprinklers? And if the firefighters hadn't gone in to rescue someone that was reported to be in the building and that person had died, you'd be stomping their guts out for that. You guys are unbelievable!
Why can't people understand that "bad" things happen to "good" people? If there was any intent to do harm or put people in harms way, I'm sure we'll know about it. I seriously doubt that this was the case, but to read what you all are clamoring about, you'd think that you want someone to stand in front of a firing squad or something of that order. Let the fire department officials do their job and wait to see the outcome before jumping on them to stomp their guts out. It's real easy to be an arm chair firefighter, isn't it?
Posted by gencon1 on August 28, 2007 at 3:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The City Council doesn't make decisions on building codes. The State Building codes Commission handles that. City council doesn't have a clue about building codes or fire fighting. Do you want to see a show? Wait till the chief (whoever he is) has to go before a city council to get funding. The stupid questions he will have to endure will be quite a show.
I am not for Riley or Thomas. I just know that a council/manager form of goverment is the most inefficient form there is. The weak governor/general assembly we have at the state level is similar to the form of strong council/manager city goverment you are all asking for.
The present form of state goverment that we have in SC costs the taxpayers 1/3 more than the states on either side of us. Our state goverment is a joke with no one being responsible for anything.
At least right now you can point a finger easily at Riley. Who would you blame the SSS Fire on if this had happened and we had a council/manager type of goverment? It would only be worse than what we now.
All of you fire-fighter guys and anti-Riley guys, think about what you are asking for. You are asking for a form of goverment that is so diffuse that no one can make a decision and no one is responsible for the decisions that are made.
I would rather have a leader that can have the power to make the decisions and be held responsible for those decisions. And please don't give me that whiny crap about how Joe Riley can control the mayoral elections.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 28, 2007 at 3:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think what people are asking for is a government that is truly working for the people...all of them...and that includes the FF and other public servants. The truth IS coming out. The City and Fire Chief was warned TWICE that there were serious failures within this system...the men did not have what they needed and they didn't have the training they should have.
How can the Mayor and the Chief NOT be responsible????? Who do you think made the decisions NOT to follow National Standards? How about NIMS? Do you people NOT hear what you are saying?
"Bad things happen to good people"????? Give me a break..with all do respect I haven't heard a crock of crap that large in weeks....since this thing broke wide open in fact...they are FF, not kamakazi's for crying out loud..there are regulations and standards for how they SHOULD be operating, and those were CLEARLY ignored by the Chief and Mayor..
The Mayor has a duty to his citizens not to become a rogue member of government. If the Council members are correct, he is running a one man show and that is a SERIOUS travesty...Why have a government at all if that is the case...
Come on, wake up and smell the coffee...SCREW the money for God's sake, these are OUR family members and friends dying pal!
Three words: CHECKS AND BALANCES
You guys have to be a plant to stir the poo, because there is no one that out of touch with reality is there?
People made them aware over the years, and then sat back to WAIT for change..where are we today? Nine fallen FF..One HE** of a price to pay for wait and see, eh?
Respectfully
Posted by oldcap on August 28, 2007 at 4:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The Mayor is responsible. He sought out the strong Mayor form of government and now he should be held accountable for the way his chief has underperformed. When ISO strips their rating of 1, when another inevstigative body comes in, and when an audit is performed the mayor will look horrific.
He asked to have control. He has it. Let him also accept the blame.
Posted by jifdeng3 on August 28, 2007 at 5:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Quote "I don't even know what the national standards are" Rusty Thomas. And you say he is NOT responsible. HA Give me a break.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 28, 2007 at 5:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Cap, you hit the nail on the head! You too JIFDEng3...
Posted by 18yrsinthebusiness on August 28, 2007 at 5:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
deputy216... guess what? KISS has changed with the evolution of the modern world.... Here it is in case you missed it...
Keep
It
Simple &
Safe
There is no room for stupid in the Fire service.
RIP Brothers
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 28, 2007 at 5:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It takes a petition, signed by 15% of citizens (roughly 15,000 angry charlestonians paying more to cover the lawsuits) or a vote of city council to place a vote on the ballot changing the form of city government.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 28, 2007 at 5:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sorry -
Should have read "15% of the city's registered voters"
Not "15% of citizens (roughly 15,000 angry charlestonians paying more to cover the lawsuits)" <<<
Posted by miki on August 28, 2007 at 6:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
There is a chain of representation that occurs in government that is completely being ignored and I’m pissed off that it’s “the way it is” and no one has pressed to change it.
The Mayor of any town does not represent that Citizen. The Citizen is represented by their City Councilman (person). The Mayor then represents the City Councilman, and then by extension, the Citizen, and makes administrative decisions based on City Council’s input.
Mayor Riley is not listening to the Citizens because he is not listening to City Council. And, by the way, many City Council members are not listening to the Citizens so the whole processed is damned from the beginning.
How many of you have been approached by a city representative and asked for what YOU want in relation to any issues, especially the SSS fire and subsequent Fire Department issues? Are any of your City Council members reaching out to you, fulfilling their role as your representative, and taking those voices to City Council and the Mayor? Councilwoman Bleecker, MY councilwoman, has not. I’ve even reached out to her and voiced my opinion and it was pushed aside with her advising me what HER position was (which was full support for the Mayor) and blatantly refusing to take my opinion into consideration. But thanks for writing!
I think it’s terrific that people are voicing their opinions here because then the ideas are out there, shared with others, and considered by others. But please, PLEASE make sure you’re also communicating these wants and ideas with your City Councilmen. If you can post here you have email access and copying your P&C story comments to the Councilmen should be an easy second
step.
By God, I don’t care what the Mayor wants or City Council wants. I care about what my neighbors and I want. And, yes, I practice what I preach.
Posted by charleytowngirl on August 28, 2007 at 6:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hamy91: Excellent point!
Burntowner: You vent all you want! There are many of us that support the FF's by writing letters, sending emails, talking to people. You give us the info and we'll make sure it gets to the council members. Our concern is for your safety and to find out the truth of what happened at this tragic fire so that it NEVER happens again.
Mayor Riley: You say the FF's can speak freely and their input is needed? Then put Thomas on admin leave so these guys can speak freely without fear of retribution....oh wait, nevermind, isn't that they same way you strike fear in the hearts of council members?!?!?
Council Members: For those of you still on the fence, waiting on an official report, what the hell? Do you not read and talk to people? Do you not see what is going on? You don't need to wait on a report! The longer you wait, the worse it gets!
Posted by charleytowngirl on August 28, 2007 at 6:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Not all council members post their email addresses on the city website. Does anyone have email addresses for the following:
Louis L. Waring
Kathleen Wilson
Robert M. Mithcell
Jimmy S. Gallant, III
Wendell G. Gilliard
Thanks
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 28, 2007 at 6:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well city of charleston, city council, from what I'm hearing it looks like there's a big freight train heading charleston way. The only question is, are you going to be on board the train, or standing in front of it, like a frightened deer staring into the headlights, when it hits town.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 28, 2007 at 7:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Charley,
They don't publish their email addresses, physical letters only...modern eh?
Posted by WardLaFrance on August 28, 2007 at 8:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
From the above article: "I don't want to interfere with the investigation," Gallant said. "We just don't want to wait for something else to happen before we have good information."
Thank God someone has been listening.
"Some, such as Councilwoman Kathleen Wilson, said the city needs to avoid knee-jerk reactions and let official investigations run their course." (p&c)
Knee-jerk reaction? I only see one jerk there. I simply do not understand how Wilson can not see the amplified risk in an already risk laden job.
"We need to resist the temptation to get in and fix things right away," she (Wilson) said. "Let's allow people to do their jobs before we rush in to judge."
Someone said that CC members do not understand the job the firefighters do. I would propose that Wilson strap on some inferior gear and join these men at the next structure fire. She's had as much training as many of them. Maybe that would change her tune.
PS: Has anyone else commented on the liability release that the P&C is now including on the comment submission page?
Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 28, 2007 at 8:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I found that interesting myself Ward...wonder what's up with that...? Although I heard on another forum someone was threatening people...might be the issue?
Posted by WardLaFrance on August 28, 2007 at 8:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Isn't it funny that the P&C is extremely concerned with liability and the City of Charleston is apparently not?
Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 28, 2007 at 9:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Ward,
Honestly, it goes to show the inherently backward mentality
Harpo, Well stated..
Posted by charleytowngirl on August 28, 2007 at 10:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
City Council members can't hear us if we don't email or write them. Most of the email addresses are published on the City of Charleston website.
I urge anyone who is concerned enough to post a comment here to write the council members and be heard. Not all of them monitor these boards! Please, we must be heard in the city council that something needs to be done! It doesn't have to be anything fancy, they just need to hear that we, the citizens, are concerned that changes aren't happening fast enough and the next big fire could be tomorrow! Please, do it for the 9 and their families who gave so much for us!
Posted by bickleseagrave on August 28, 2007 at 11:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Quote Nicholas Scoppetti, New York's Fire Commissioner
“So, we will recognize, acknowledge and learn from our mistakes,” Mr. Scoppetta continued, “and we will hold everybody accountable, no matter where this investigation takes us.”
Quote Rusty Thomas
"Our firefighting techniques are not going to change in the city of Charleston Fire Department,"
"We're safe, we've got the best equipment, we've got the best people and that's the way we fight fires," he said.
"That's the tradition that's been carried on in the city of Charleston Fire Department since time was time," Fire Chief Rusty Thomas said. "Are we going to let someone's property burn? No, sir."
"We come from a long line of traditional firefighting, and we are never going to get away from that — never," Thomas said. "You can't read out of a book how to put a fire out. You have to go out there and do it, and that's what we do."
What a difference, similar tragedies, two different ways of handling them. Which one is best Hmmmmmm!
Posted by charleytowngirl on August 28, 2007 at 11:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Send letters, write emails! DO IT NOW!